Sobre co-diseño para recursos digitales en el sector cultural – Rostros del tiempo, 2o Coloquio de Vida Cotidiana en México

Hoy martes 3 de septiembre del 2019 participaré en el Segundo Coloquio de Vida Cotidiana en México, “Rostros del tiempo” a las 13:30hrs, en el Museo de Arte de la SHCP, Moneda 4, Centro Histórico, Ciudad de México. Entrada libre.

Mi presentación sintetizará aproximaciones de las ciencias sociales, el diseño interactivo o diseño centrado en el usuario (HCID) y las humanidades digitales explorando qué métodos podemos utilizar para buscar integrar más sustentablemente la vida cotidiana en México y los recursos digitales abiertos en el sector cultural mexicano.

Las principales preguntas que guiarán mi presentación serán:

 

  • ¿De qué hablamos cuando hablamos de “recursos” digitales en el sector cultural?
  • ¿Qué tipo de contextos, y qué tipo de instituciones y recursos digitales tenemos?
  • ¿Cómo puede contribuir la disciplina del diseño interactivo, o diseño centrado en el usuario (HCI; UX) a ‘conectar’ los recursos digitales con el público en su vida cotidiana?
  • ¿Qué significaría diseñar para conectar con usuarios de un modo sustentable y específico al contexto local?

 

 

El programa completo abajo.

Rostros del tiempo. Programa. Talleres.

Rostros del tiempo. Coloquio. Programa

Es un honor estar de vuelta en México para participar en este evento.

On the Aesthetic Education of Caregivers: Presentation Report from #GM2019 at the Parables of Care blog

This post was originally published on the Parables of Care project blog and the images are hosted there. Copying and pasting here for self-archiving purposes.

The City, University of London and Douglas College, Canada research team collaborating on comics and creativity for healthcare were present at the Graphic Medicine 2019 international conference in Brighton, UK, hosted by the Brighton and Sussex Medical School, 11-13 July 2019.

The title of this fully multidisciplinary conference this year was Queerying Graphic Medicine – Paradigms, Power and Practices.

A full report of the conference is outside the remit of this blog post. However, you can catch up with the conference hashtag on Twitter- to make that easier I created a searchable archive of the #GM2019 tweets here. There’s some excellent photos, sketches, comics, links and information that give a rich collective view of what went on.

Abi Roper (City)  Marie-Pier Caron (Douglas), Ruhina Rana (Douglas), Peter Wilkins (Douglas) and myself (City) presented in a panel in the Paradigms Panel at Room M2 on Friday 12 July 2019, from 4 to 5:30 pm. The title of the session was “On the Aesthetic Education of Caregivers. The Specificities of Form and Genre in Comics about Dementia Care”.

The presentation slides have been deposited on figshare and can be downloaded under a CC-By license as

Priego, E., Wilkins, P., Roper, A., Caron, M., et al. (2019) On the Aesthetic Education of Caregivers. The Specificities of Form and Genre in Comics about Dementia Care. Presentation. [Online]. Available from: doi: https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.8863448. [Accessed: 16 July 2019].

The audience included health care professionals, academics and artists also working on dementia, aphasia and mental care, with the conversation between audience and presenters extending beyond the Q&A and the session allocated time and offering a valuable networking opportunity to continuing or initiating further collaborations. We were all very grateful for the attentive and engaged audience who attended our session, and for their important questions and feedback.

The team also distributed free copies of both Parables of Care and the INCA Project‘s MakeWrite poetry booklet (in a limited and numbered edition handmade by Abi Roper specially for the conference). This happened both at the panel session itself and throughout the whole conference thanks to the generosity of the Waterstones table (Richard- if you read this, thank you!).

Table at conference panel room
Conference Waterstones table

The Brighton conference was a unique opportunity for the team to work together (for once not mediated by computers nor geographically separated by the 7,573 km distance between Vancouver and London, UK), to get to know each other better and strengthen our research ties. Though Simon Grennan was unfortunately unable to make it due to work commitments, he was in touch with us throughout and before the conference had ended he had already shared with us the proofs for the Parables of Care Spanish translation, which we will release before the end of the Summer. (We missed you, Simon!)

Priego, Roper, Caron, Rana, Wilkins at GM2019
Left to Right: Priego, Roper, Caron, Rana, Wilkins

The conference provided plenty of further evidence that our previous and ongoing work fits within a larger, fully international and multidisciplinary, dynamic and exciting network of individuals and organisations focused on advancing the case for the use of comics and other multimodal storytelling media within healthcare. I think it is fair to say that all of us had the most fantastic, nurturing, fun and thought-provoking time.

Thank you very much to all the GM2019 organisers, as well as all our fellow presenters and attendees, for an incredible conference.

The GM2019 conference organisers announced the Graphic Medicine will return to Toronto next year. See you in Toronto for GM2020 maybe?

Parables of Care can be downloaded as a PDF file, under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License, from

If you work in a library, hospital, GP practice or care home- or care for someone with dementia in the UK, you can order a free copy of Parables of Care here: in the UK you can request printed copies at no cost here.

Oligopolies of Knowledge, {Digital Humanities} and Open Access: Looking at Scopus from the Global South… [form the North]

Oligopolies of Knowledge, {Digital Humanities} and Open Access: Looking at Scopus from the Global South… [form the North]

 

To download and cite the slides: Priego, Ernesto (2019): Oligopolies of Knowledge, {Digital Humanities} and Open Access: Looking at Scopus from the Global South… [form the North]. figshare. Presentation. https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.8850863

Presentation for P-11: Society, Media, Politics, Engagement Time: Wednesday, 10/Jul/2019: 4:00pm – 5:30pm Session Chair: Amelia Sanz DH2019 Conference, Utrecht, the Netherlands. Location: Pandora Zaal Part of the panel: Twining Digital Humanities and Humanidades Digitales: A set of actual experiences from the South.

All the slides from the panel can be viewed and/or downloaded and cited from:

Fiormonte, Domenico; Numerico, Teresa; Priego, Ernesto; Rodríguez-ortega, Nuria; Sanz, Amelia; Sapiera, Eugenia (2019): Twining Digital Humanities and Humanidades Digitales: A Set of Actual Experiences from the South [Slides]. figshare. Presentation. https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.8874998

Parables of Care at the Graphic Medicine 2019 Conference, Brighton, UK

graphic medicine conference 2019 bannerI am pleased to (slightly belatedly) announce on this blog that our multidisciplinary panel discussing Parables of Care will feature in the programme of the Graphic Medicine 2019 international conference in Brighton, UK.

Our panel will feature team members from the UK and Canada components of the Parables of Care project.

The title of the conference this year is Queerying Graphic Medicine – Paradigms, Power and Practices and will take place 11-13 July 2019 in Brighton, UK.

 

HCID Open Day 2019: Design for Good: Call for Expressions of Interest #HCID2019

 

The HCID Open Day is a free mini conference hosted by our centre attracting an audience of 200+ UX / design / digital professionals. The theme for this year will be ‘Design for Good’ and will focus on how design can be used to positively impact society, designing for inclusion and the moral implications of design.

The Centre for Human Computer Interaction Design (HCID) at City, University of London have chosen this topic as we believe it reflects the kind of work we are currently doing and that all designers have the power to enact positive change. The day will close with us presenting our vision for HCIDs future.

Every year we invite in guest speakers from industry and academia to talk about UX / HCI / Interaction Design and related fields. The day will be been made up of 21 concurrent talks / workshops with opening and closing keynotes, past keynotes have included Google, eBay, Ideo and Modern Human. You can get a feel for the event through our recap video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7b7HsPUJfjQ&t=2s.

This year’s HCID Open Day will be on Tuesday 18th June 2019 starting at 10:30am, and running until 6:30pm.

Personally, I’d be keen to see ideas from colleagues who would like to do presentations on designing of comics and animation for good, or, if you will, on practice-based uses of comics and animation in scholarly communications, education, health care, social justice and international development as ‘design for good’.

Needless to say, I’d also like to encourage colleagues doing HCI/UCD work in the areas of open access academic publishing, open education,  open data and ITC4D to consider submitting ideas too. 

If you are interested in taking part please contact the event’s organiser Stuart Scott on stuart.scott.2@city.ac.uk with an idea for your talk and mentioning it was me who sent you. If you aren’t able to talk at the event it would still be great to see you there!

HCID Research Seminar: The Question Concerning Comics as Technology: Gestell and Grid. Implications for HCID

A. (2015). When the Last Story is Told. Malmo: C’est Bon Kultur. © 2015.
A page from Allan Haverholm’s When the Last Story is Told. Haverholm, A. (2015). When the Last Story is Told. Malmo: C’est Bon Kultur. © 2015.

 

Today I will give a talk as part of the Centre for Human Computer Interaction Design‘s HCID Research Seminar series.

Talk Title: The Question Concerning Comics as Technology: Gestell and Grid. Implications for HCID

Time: 13:00, Friday 23 November 2018
Room: AG11

Abstract:

In this presentation I will discuss recent research (Priego and Wilkins 2018) where we propose that the goal of the comics grid is to manage, dynamically, what we call “a potentially overwhelming sublime space” through a process of “enframing”. I will argue that this enframing continues to take place well beyond the printed page, and that therefore traditional comic scholarship approaches will need to continue adapting their focus to what new technologies reveal about comics. I will provide examples of how the notion of the  ‘page’ is getting continuously redefined by screen-based media and by comics reading applications.

 In this context, I will argue that fields concerned with screen-based media interactions, such as Human-Computer Interaction Design, should be expected to continue making important contributions to our understanding of comics, for instance, through methods of visual analysis where technology (such as eye-tracking) are used for evaluating how people interact with media. Understanding comics as a type of information architecture, with the grid as a particular type of interface design, can potentially provide different types of explanations of its effectiveness as a means to display and manage otherwise overwhelming volumes and types of information (see for example Kammerer and Gerjets 2010; Bach et al 2018; Tabassum et al 2018).

References

Priego, E. and Wilkins, P., 2018. The Question Concerning Comics as Technology: Gestell and Grid. The Comics Grid: Journal of Comics Scholarship, 8, p.16. DOI: http://doi.org/10.16995/cg.133

Kammerer, Y and Gerjets, P. 2010. How the interface design influences users’ spontaneous trustworthiness evaluations of web search results: comparing a list and a grid interface. In: Proceedings of the 2010 Symposium on Eye-Tracking Research & Applications (ETRA ‘10), 299–306. ACM, New York, NY, USA. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/1743666.1743736

Bach, B, Wang, Z, Farinella, M, Murray-Rust, D and Riche, NH. 2018. Design Patterns for Data Comics. In: Proceedings of the 2018 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI ‘18), 12. ACM, New York, NY, USA, Paper 38. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/3173574.3173612

Tabassum, M, Alqhatani, A, Aldossari, M and Richter Lipford, H. 2018. Increasing User Attention with a Comic-based Policy. In: Proceedings of the 2018 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems (CHI ‘18), 6. ACM, New York, NY, USA, Paper 200. DOI: https://doi.org/10.1145/3173574.3173774

Convegno di studi: Ricerca scientifica, monopoli della conoscenza e Digital Humanities – Rome

As part of my Open Access Week 2018 activities, I will be doing an express trip to Rome on Wednesday 24th October 2018 to participate in the following event:

Convegno di studi  

Ricerca scientifica, monopoli della conoscenza e Digital Humanities. Prospettive critiche dall’Europa del Sud

La investigación científca, los monopolios del conocimiento y Humanidades Digitales. Perspectivas críticas desde el Sur de Europa

Università Roma Tre, 24-25 ottobre 2018

http://scienzepolitiche.uniroma3.it/blog/archives/21635

I also added the event to the Open Access Week 2018 events listing: http://www.openaccessweek.org/events/ricerca-scientifica-monopoli-della-conoscenza-e-digital

Twitter hashtag for the event: #DHPIIGS18

La investigación científca, los monopolios del conocimiento y Humanidades Digitales. Perspectivas críticas desde el Sur de Europa; poster en español
La investigación científca, los monopolios del conocimiento y Humanidades Digitales. Perspectivas críticas desde el Sur de Europa; poster en español

 

I am looking forward to being at Roma Tre again.

My abstract:

Oligopolios del conocimiento y acceso abierto: perspectivas desde el sur
Oligopolies of Knowledge and Open Access: Perspectives from the Global South

Dr Ernesto Priego
Centre for Human Computer Interaction Design
City, University of London, Reino Unido

[sp]
En esta presentación discutiré las razones por las que hablamos de “oligopolios del conocimiento”, detallando la concentración de actividad de comunicaciones académicas (en este caso publicaciones) a través de compañías editoriales con fines de lucro con base en el norte global, por autores con afiliación a universidades del norte global y en la lengua inglesa. Me referiré al trabajo que he estado haciendo en los últimos cinco años documentando y mapeando dicha concentración localizada y en su mayoría monolingüe (con énfasis en las humanidades digitales; Priego et al 2014; Priego y Fiormonte, 2016 y 2018) mediante metodologías de bibliometría alternativa (Alperin et al 2014) para a su vez llamar la atención a la correlación de los imbalances de esta concentración geopolítica (Graham 2011; Fiormonte 2017) con modos de diseminación cerrados de alto costo para instituciones (Lawson 2016). A su vez, discutiré la correspondiente y apropiación de mecanismos de acceso abierto por parte de las mismas compañías editoriales con fines de lucro, mediante estrategias de negocio como los cargos de procesos de publicación (APCs, por sus siglas en inglés), y los retos que esto implica particularmente para los investigadores en las áreas de ciencias sociales, artes y humanidades, y en específico para aquellos con afiliación en el sur global (Priego et al 2017). Finalmente, habiendo detallado lo que es un panorama complejo para las comunicaciones académicas, presentaré ejemplos de alternativas existentes y discutiré los crecientes retos y dilemas específicos a los diversos contextos del sur global.

[eng]

In this presentation I will discuss the reasons why we speak of “oligopolies of knowledge”, detailing the concentration of activity of academic communications (in this case, publications) via for profit publishing companies based in the global north, by authors with affiliation with universities in the global north and in the English language. I will refer to the work I have been doing in the last five years, documenting and mapping this localised and mostly monolingual concentration (with an emphasis on the digital humanities, Priego et al 2014, Priego and Fiormonte, 2016 and 2018) through alternative bibliometric methodologies (Alperin et al 2014), in order to draw attention to the correlation of the imbalances of this geopolitical concentration (Graham 2011, Fiormonte 2017) with closed modes of dissemination of high cost for institutions (Lawson 2016). In turn, I will discuss the corresponding and appropriation of open access mechanisms by the same for profit publishing companies, through business strategies such as Article Processing Charges (APCs) and the challenges that this implies particularly for researchers in the areas of social sciences, arts and humanities, and specifically for those with affiliations in the global south (Priego et al 2017; Eve and Priego 2018). Finally, having detailed what a complex picture for academic communications is, I will present examples of existing alternatives and discuss the growing challenges and dilemmas specific to the various contexts of the global South.

 

Referencias/References

Alperin, JP., Babini, D., Fischman, G. (eds.) 2014. Open access indicators and scholarly communications in Latin America (Buenos Aires: CLACSO, First edtion). Available in full text on the Web Virtual Library of CLACSO: http://www.biblioteca.clacso.edu.ar

Fiormonte, D. 2017. Digital Humanities and the Geopolitics of Knowledge. Digital Studies/Le champ num ́erique, 7(1). Available at: https://doi.org/10.16995/dscn.274

Fiormonte, E. & Priego, E., 2016. Knowledge Monopolies and Global Academic Publishing. The Winnower. Available at: https://doi.org/10.15200/winn.147220.00404

Graham, et al, M., 2011. Visualizing the uneven geographies of knowledge production and circulation. Global Higher Education, 14.9. Available at: https://globalhighered.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/visualizing-the-uneven-geographies-of-knowledge-production-and-circulation/

Lawson, S., Gray, J., Mauri, M., (2016). Opening the Black Box of Scholarly Communication Funding: A Public Data Infrastructure for Financial Flows in Academic Publishing. Open Library of Humanities. 2(1), p.e10. DOI: http://doi.org/10.16995/olh.72

Priego, E. and Fiormonte, D. 2018. Empire and Scholarly Communications. Multinational Monopolies of Knowledge and the Global South. Available at:
https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.6634484.v8

Priego, E.; Havemann, L.; Atenas, J. 2014 Source Dataset for Online Attention to Digital Humanities Publications (#DH2014 poster). Available at:
http://dx.doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.1094359

Priego, E. et al. 2014. Online Attention to Digital Humanities Publications (#DH2014 poster). Available at: https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.1094345.v1

Eve, M. and Priego, E. (2017). Who is Actually Harmed by Predatory Publishers?. tripleC: Communication, Capitalism & Critique. Open Access Journal for a Global Sustainable Information Society, 15(2), pp. 755-770. Available at: http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/18007

Priego, E. et al. 2017. Scholarly Publishing, Freedom of Information and Academic Self-Determination: The UNAM-Elsevier Case. Available at:
https://doi.org/10.6084/m9.figshare.5632657.v1

 

 

Documentary Film Screening: Paywall: The Business of Scholarship (2018)

Paywall documentary film promotional poster

 

In anticipation of Open Access Week 2018 (October 22-28 2018), we’d like to invite you to a free and public screening of the documentary film Paywall: The Business of Scholarship (dir. and prod. Jason Schmitt, 2018) at City, University of London, on Wednesday 17 October 2018 from 17:30.

This event is public and free but requires registration: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/documentary-film-screening-paywall-the-business-of-scholarship-2018-tickets-49845449080

Map: https://www.city.ac.uk/visit#9541=1

Trailer 1 for Paywall: The Business of Scholarship embedded below:

Watch this and other trailers for the film at https://paywallthemovie.com/trailers.

The screening will be introduced by Yours Truly and hopefully followed by discussion, either there or at the pub.

For other screenings at universities worldwide, keep an eye on the listings at https://paywallthemovie.com/screenings.

Presenting at The First USW Cardiff: Comics Symposium- Creating Comics, Creative Comics

Creating Comics, Creative Comics

Creating Comics, Creative Comics is a 2-day academic symposium taking place on Friday June 1st & Saturday June 2nd 2018 at the University of South Wales, Cardiff, United Kingdom.

I will make a presentation Saturday (panel 4) along Simon Grennan on a project we have been doing with Peter Wilkins et al. The title of our presentation is “Hypotactic correspondences between Yonkoma four panel manga, emotional ambiguity and story, in styling and drawing the comic Parables of Care: creative responses to dementia care (2018)”.

The First USW Cardiff: Comics Symposium is interested in creator’s perspectives. It will explore comics and creativity and will examine the practice of creating comics, and the particulars of storytelling in comics.

Does changing a panel, change the story? How might a medium’s materiality affect its construction and reception? How do the theoretical and philosophical objectives of the maker inform and frame the construction of the works?

This symposium addresses these needs from the point of view of the creators involved in the production and creation of comics.

Symposium Schedule

Friday 1st June

09:30 Symposium Registration: Registration Desk, The Street, Atrium

10:30 Symposium Welcome with FCI Deputy Dean, Huw Swayne

10:45 PANEL 1 ~ Philosophy, Communicating Concepts
Dr Peter Hodges, The Last Temptation: A Consideration of the Role of Sound in Comics
Xiyuan Tan, Guoxue Comics: Visualising Philosophical Concepts and Cultural Values Through Sequential Narrative
Ian Hornsby, UCOs, or Beyond the Marriage of Philosophy and Sequential Storytelling
Dr Nathan Kilburn, Practice as Research: The Visual Aphorism
Chair: Corrado Morgana

12:30 LUNCH

13:30 WORKSHOP
Chris Phillips, Creating Comics – 5 Page Red Riding Hood
With Geraint D’Arcy

14:30 PANEL 2 ~ Perception and Re/presentation
Jeannette D’Arcy, Creating Canon: Fun Home and Transmedial Adaptation
Dr Robert Hagan, Touch Me/Don’t Touch: Female Archetypes in Ann Nocenti’s Daredevil
Chair: Madelon Hoedt

15:30 KEYNOTE
Dr Julia Round, Anonymous Authors, Invisible Illustrators, and Collaborative Creation: Misty and British Girls’ Comics

Saturday 2nd June

09:15 DAY 2 Welcome

09:30 PANEL 3 ~ Practice-As-Research
Dr Paul Davies, New Choices of the Comics Creator
Ahmed Jameel, Studying Writer-Artist Comics Collaboration: A Practice Based-Approach
Dr John Miers, Fortuitous Realism at Work and Play: The Role of Imaginative Projection in Developing a Cartooning Practice
Chair: Brian Fagence

11:00 PANEL 4 ~ Comics, Parables of Care and the Medical Self
Tony Pickering, Diabetes Year One: Drawing my pathography: comics, poetry and the medical self.
Dr Enesto Priego, Dr Simon Grennan and Dr Peter Wilkins, Hypotactic correspondences between Yonkoma four panel manga, emotional ambiguity and story, in styling and drawing the comic Parables of Care: creative responses to dementia care (2018).
Chair: Emily Underwood-Lee

12:00 LUNCH

13:00
CICE PRACTITIONER PANEL
Jon Davis-Hunt and Rob Williams
With Brian Fagence

14:00 PANEL 5 ~ History, Memoir and Autoethnography
Nick Dodds, Reframing the Graphic Memoir: How can the comic-strip artist negotiate modality and fidelity in the depiction of personal and historical narratives?
Dr Simon Grennan, Drawing in Drag: self-observation, the dissenting subject and stylistic reformation in the production of a new pseudonymous comic album
Chair: Geraint D’Arcy

15:00 ROUND TABLE / PLENARY

15:30 SYMPOSIUM END

*In association with Cardiff Indie Comic Expo. Registration for the symposium grants entry to CICE Saturday 2nd June.

Registration link: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/creating-comics-creative-comics-tickets-45194337480

ardiff Indie Comic Expo logo

Presenting at Open Access in the Humanities, University of Ljubljana

Open Access in the Humanities, : University of Ljubljana, Faculty of Arts

I will be presenting at the event Open Access in the Humanities event that will take place at the Faculty of Arts of the University of Ljubljana on 22 May 2018.

I will be participating in a panel discussion titled “How to establish open access in Slovenian academic publishing and researching?”.

The information and programme in English is available at http://www.ff.uni-lj.si/an/books/open_access_humanities.

Video streaming will also be available at the web page for the event (link above).

I would like to thank the Open Library of Humanities and the Faculty of Arts of the University of Ljubljana for making it possible for me to attend this event.

Open Library of Humanities logo

 

Presenting at HCID Open Day 2018: On Comics and Collaborative Art Practice as Human-Computer Interaction Methodology

The HCID Open Day 2018 is a mini conference on Friday 4th May run by the Centre for Human Computer Interaction Design (HCID) at City, University of London.

The theme for this year will be ‘Beyond the Screen’ and will focus on designing non screen based interactions, exploring technology that has made the jump from science fiction into reality and how UX thinking can be used for more than just interfaces.

I will present at the HCID Open Day 2018 as part of the knowledge exchange and impact activities around the Parables of Care project. My presentation is titled Meaningful Patterns: Comics and Collaborative Art Practice as HCI Research.’

Recent research has explored the use of collaborative art practice as a Human-Computer Interaction methodology (Kang et al 2014 and 2018; Benford et al 2013; Brynjarsdyttir et al 2013). In this talk I will describe how the Parables of Care project is employing collaborative comics-making as a user-centred methodology as a means to collect and disseminate data, reflect, design and propose strategies for dementia care.

I worked in partnership with Dr Simon Grennan of the University of Chester, Dr Peter Wilkins of Douglas College, Vancouver, Canada, an NHS Trust, and colleagues from HCID, leading the team to produce Parables of Care, that uses comics as a medium to evoke the kind of de-structured and re-structured experience of time that is akin to dementia, to illness, ageing and caring.

Register here: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/hcid-open-day-2018-beyond-the-screen-tickets-44666147650

Hashtags: ;

Parables of Care is a project of the Centre for Human Computer Interaction Design, City, University of London, The University of Chester, UK, and Douglas College, Vancouver, Canada.

Parables of Care can be downloaded as a PDF file, under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License, from City Research Online: http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/18245/.

If you live in the UK you can request printed copies at no cost here.